Over the past three years, Max Winkler has become almost synonymous with expansion Ryan Murphy TV portfolio. The independent filmmaker and television director directed episodes of six different Murphy productions during this brief period, more recently, they have tackled the big FX Grotesquerie and a pivotal episode of Monsters: The Lyle and Erik Mendez History for Netflix.

Winkler is already working on their next collaboration. He will be director and executive producer of the third part, still titled, of Monster franchise, which focuses on 1950s serial killer Ed Gein. The project isn’t just a reunion of Winkler, Murphy and co-creator Ian Brennan; Winkler was instrumental in hiring another former associate: the series’ protagonist. Charlie Hunnam, who previously starred in Winkler’s 2019 boxing drama Jungle country, plays Gein. And Winkler is already pretty optimistic about how this all plays out.

“I’ve done enough movies that no one has seen to tell you how nice it is to be able to react in real time,” he says, “and if we do our job, people will watch that.”

Television is nothing new to Winkler. Between two independent feature film releases, the 41-year-old filmmaker stepped in to direct series such as New girl, Crazy ex girlfriend, Brooklyn nine nine And Naughty. But by approaching five episodes of the very stylized film Grotesquerie arguably gave Winkler his most creative freedom to date – even filming 15 minutes of an episode in a single shot.

During a recent production hiatus, Winkler, the son of Hollywood royalty Henry Winkler, spoke about his recent choices, the struggles of independent cinema today and what he and his cohorts have planned for the next installment of Monster.

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Since you’re working on it right now, I should probably ask you how Ed Gein became the subject of the next season of Monster.

When Ryan first told Charlie and I about it, he said it all came from this guy. He was the first serial killer, he kind of helped coin the term. He mentioned a very low-key character study about this guy, and Charlie and I were immediately into it. I’m truly grateful to embark on this adventure with Charlie, who is one of my favorite actors.

This is a huge change for the franchise, both in terms of the time period and public awareness of the subject.

There’s this William Wyler film, The best years of our livesit really shows the overwhelming experience of what it feels like to be a human being after the atomic bomb was dropped. Everything looked great from the outside. The adverts for vacuum cleaners or Bologna were all bright and shiny, but there was a real mental health crisis. People didn’t know how to talk about it or how to diagnose it. What I loved about what Ryan did with the Menendez brothers was the question he asked the audience. The first was simply obvious. Jeffrey Dahmer is the monster. With the Menendez brothers, it took a while Rashomon’s point of view. Are the children the monster? Is this a privilege? Is it José Menéndez? Is it Kitty? So I will say that this one turns perspective into more of a deeper exercise, asking who the real monsters are. And it’s going to be different, just in the nature of the lighting. We’re in rural Wisconsin in the 1950s, with no electricity.

Five or six years ago, it became very common for a single director to tackle each episode of a miniseries. We see it less and less. Are you directing all of this?

No, and I don’t know how they do it. I could never do it. Even with GrotesquerieI did five out of ten. I don’t know how people do it And preparation.

I spoke with Gus Van Sant earlier this year, and he mentioned really wanting to run everything Quarrel. Ultimately it was too demanding, so you and Jennifer Lynch stepped in to direct two of the episodes.

Gus is one of my favorite directors of all time, so I would just hang out on set while Gus was directing. I felt like I had won some kind of competition. During my episode, which was this kind of fever dream My dinner with André situation between James Baldwin and Truman Capote, I was just very nervous. I was afraid of scamming Gus, because I usually scam him as much as I can. He’s a genius.

You’ve been marinating in a lot of dark stuff lately. How are you holding up?

It doesn’t affect me. I don’t direct the method. (Laughter)

By directing the first episode of Grotesquerie, you were obviously very involved in establishing the aesthetic of the series. But you have also produced episodes where, to make matters worse, the narration and visuals change. This gave the opportunity to refine, otherwise resetthe look. How did you approach this?

Subtly. None of us wanted people to fall in love with the look of a show for the first seven episodes and then all of a sudden it becomes completely different. It seemed too risky to me. The changes in look, camera movements and lighting were very subtle in an attempt to not alienate anyone who was truly enjoying this part of the journey. But we had approached this story in a way that set up all these little breadcrumbs that you can’t go back and see. Ryan had a clear vision for the entire season and episode seven from the start. So we were able to plan all of this. And our inspiration for this look lies somewhere between David Lynch and Chinatown. Which is to say: very, very screwed up.

Return to Monsterswhat do you think of all this developments in the case of the Menendez brothers? There is a scenario in which their sentences could be commuted a few months after this show airs.

It’s amazing, and I think it’s because of the show. America’s criminal system is deeply flawed, and that’s a testament to Ryan’s impact on the culture. Regardless of everyone’s problems with the show, it’s absolutely crazy. Obviously there have been movements to (get them out of prison), but I’m sure what’s happening now is also directly related to the awareness that this show has brought. And I think 30+ years is enough to pay for the mistakes you made when you were young.

You mention the influence of Ryan Murphy. What is the appeal of joining this repertory theater, apart from the material and regular work?

It’s really nice to create things that are part of the culture. I haven’t understood that in any of the films I’ve made. And it’s really hard for me to spend years on these things and then not be able to handle the release or who sees it. There’s something incredibly satisfying about taking the same amount of time and care to create something, and then knowing that you’ll be able to talk about it with people in real time – and not bang your head against a wall with a marketing department about a trailer or something.

Are there any particularly frustrating examples of this?

The best thing I think I ever did was a movie I did with Charlie Hunnam (Jungle country). No one saw it and it crushed me. It made me want to retire. It came out in theaters during the first year of COVID and it was just “damn.” There is a whole generation of films that have been lost because of this. So the fact that Charlie and I can come back and do this with Ryan and the team is very satisfying to me. Because I know that whatever we do – whether it’s good or not is not for me to say – I know people will see it.

We’re nearing the end of a year where the mood has been rather gloomy in Hollywood. TV’s problems seem particularly clear: Buyers aren’t spending. What do you think is the biggest challenge in making a film right now?

The biggest challenge in getting an independent film is that financiers won’t finance a film without a cast. And I’ve found that agents won’t really read scripts unless there’s financing attached. They don’t want to take risks for their actor without certainty. It has become a “chicken or the egg” situation, and it is impossible. An act of God has to happen for an independent film to be made. Nobody reads the scripts. So unless I have a pre-existing relationship with an actor, I find it very difficult to make a film. International financing is another matter. You end up being forced to choose people who aren’t necessarily right. It’s not fair to the people you recruit or the people you don’t recruit. All of a sudden, the film no longer looks like what the filmmakers intended. It’s become a really complicated rat race that makes you lose your mind.

I hate asking people about the status of announced projects, but I loved Katy Vine’s one. Texas Monthly piece on the fruitcake hijacking scandal. You’re set to direct the adaptation, Jennifer Garner and Paul Walter Hauser are attached. Is this movie going to happen?

I hope so. It’s just a house of cards. We’ll have this little window that works for everyone. Then something changes and someone has to make a choice that makes total sense for their career, and everything falls apart again. This is madness. To make an independent film today, you need producers who really live for this shit, just relentless people who don’t want to take “no” for an answer. And we hear “no” so much.