Few people have spent so much time immersed Taylor Swiftmusic by Rob Sheffield. Like a long time ago rolling stone journalist and author of books including Dreaming of the Beatles, On BowieAnd Love is a mix tape, Sheffield has long incorporated his memoirs, fans and critics into his work.

With his last effort, Heartbreak is the national anthem (published November 12 via Dey Street Books), Sheffield chronicles Swift’s cultural takeover through her own memories of her music – and her interactions with Swift herself – revealing how she changed the pop paradigm.

“Writing about her just in the long history of pop music and her place in it, she transformed music in her time so much that it’s crazy to go back and think how much that was different when she started,” Sheffield told PEOPLE. “So I wanted to show how things were before Taylor and how completely different they are after Taylor.”

Throughout 29 chapters, Sheffield, 58, delves into Swift’s prolific discography and the artistry of her craft and career — the “Mazzy Swift” sound of “Sad Beautiful Tragic,” Swift’s affinity for Secret Codes and its breathtaking sister albums. folklore And always.

“It’s funny, my last two books were about The Beatles And David Bowieand to me, she’s in the pantheon with them,” Sheffield says of Swift.

In an interview with PEOPLE, Sheffield delves into Swift’s preservation of the lyrics and reveals what sound he hopes Swift will tackle in the future.

Several authors have taken it upon themselves to write about Swift in recent years. How did you approach his story differently?

Well, (it was) writing about Taylor, her music and ultimately the great mystery of Taylor Swift – how she writes these songs that are so personal and yet resonate with so many people as our own story. Everyone has Taylor songs that we hear and think, “This one’s about me.” “And sharing that with so many thousands of people in the same stadium at the same time is such a surreal pop experience that I wanted to write about Taylor in those terms as a songwriter.

You mix the memoir with Swift’s work and cultural impact. Why was this the right approach for this book?

It’s like that for you and me, and it’s like that with her too. She thus hears music as the story of her life. And to me, just listening to her songs, even early on, even just on this first album, it’s already clear that she’s someone who hears herself through her own prism of pop music.

There is a common thread in the book comparing the success of the Beatles and Swift. Tell me more about this.

Well, the Beatles are the closest thing to a Taylor Swift that we have in history. First, there are the Beatles who appear on The Ed Sullivan Showand they show everyone, “Wow, okay, this is something you can do. This is something you can participate in as a fan or as a musician. We just pick up guitars and drums and write songs about real human emotions.” People saw the Beatles and said, “Hey, I can do that.” » That’s when people started forming bands, but also becoming avid fans of pop music. The Beatles proved that it was possible, and then, as they became more experimental and innovative in their later years, they proved just what could be done with this format. And Taylor is the same.

With her first two records, she simply proves that it’s possible and shows the world: “I’m a girl with a guitar, I write my own songs and I get away with it. I can’t just persuade a label to records to put out my songs and let me write every song”, which no country songwriter, no country singer could get away with in 2006. And then she shows everyone how far you can go with folklore And always. It really comes down to this big outburst of Taylor being like the Beatles on The Ed Sullivan Show in terms of when Taylor came along and having to fight so hard to prove that it was possible. Look at what’s huge right now, whether it’s Sabrina Charpentier, Chappell Roan, Charli, Gracie Abrams, Billie Eilish Or Olivia Rodrigothis is what pop music is in 2024, and it’s all because Taylor proved it was possible. These artists don’t look alike and none of them copy Taylor, but they all do something because Taylor proved it was possible.

In the book, you reveal that Swift once introduced you to Alan Aldridge, who is deeply entrenched in Beatles history as an illustrator. Was this before or after your book on the Beatles? Did it contribute anything to your research?

It was after my book on the Beatles. That’s when she did it amazing Harper’s Bazaar interview with Pattie Boyd. It was so breathtaking and so brilliant. And Pattie, she’s more famous now, but she’s a figure in Beatles lore that fans and hysterics really knew. But Taylor (was) interested in the muse that inspires the songs. It’s so funny to me that she’s this level of geek. Especially since for so many years people assumed she was just a disposable puppet just because she was a young girl. But we were talking about this Pattie interview and bits of Beatles history, and she starts telling me about Alan Aldridge, and she’s surprised I haven’t heard of him. And she says, “Oh yeah, he’s the visual artist. He did the Beatles picture book with these lyrics created.” And for a while, John Lennon called him the Beatles’ official visual artist. I was like, “Really? I don’t know.” She’s the type of fan geek who knows about this and is just able to express it in casual conversation.

I also like how you explore how his affinity for secret codes also comes from the Beatles.

That’s the kind of geek she is. There’s an interview I mention in the book when she was 16 and the guy says, “So I looked at your CD and you have the lyrics, you have random letters in capitals.” And she said, “No, well, no, they’re not random letters. If you take the capital letters and put them together, they spell out a secret message for each song, like “Date Nice Boys” for one of the songs. And she explains: “The Beatles did this in the ’60s when they made records like The White album, and if you played it backwards you could hear a secret message.” It’s simply breathtaking. She’s a 16-year-old country singer and she’s already thinking about these terms. She is already thinking of building a work like that of the Beatles.

You connect Swift’s lyrical references over the years, like the mention of being pirates in “The Best Day” and “Seven.” How does exploring how Swift preserves and repurposes these moments further explain her as a pop star?

This fascinates me. “Seven” and “The Best Day” (are) two very different kinds of childhood portraits, and you don’t need to notice that connection to love these two songs. But she puts things like that in there to reward you for paying an extra level of attention. And sometimes there are fan theories that I don’t know if they are true. I love the 112 day theory (numerology), but that’s one thing where she had fun with that stuff because she was on the Eras tour and said, “Okay, and that ‘was 113…” It’s really funny how she I just enjoy that aspect of the game.

No one has truly had a music career like Swift. Do you think anyone could reach his level of impact, or is this an anomaly?

Well, she’s definitely an anomaly compared to everyone who came before her. However, we can see just by looking around, just by listening to the radio for an hour, how she completely transformed pop music and really elevated the fangirl to the center of pop music in a way that has always been, at best, subtext. She actually said the quietest part about it out loud. By transforming music in this way, it is possible that one of the artists it inspires will break all their records and lead this kind of career. Maybe not as great, but just because she’s spent her entire career proving that things no one thought possible can be done. So I think there will be comparable careers, just like with the Beatles. Nothing before the Beatles suggested that a career like the Beatles’ was possible.

I know you’ve spoken with Swift several times, but you’ve never interviewed her. If you had the chance, what question would you ask him?

I would ask him about books. I’d love to hear him talk about reading about his relationship with Emily Dickinson, for example. I always wonder if she’s read Oscar Wilde. I always wonder if she’s read Clarice Lispector. I always wonder if she’s a fan of Djuna Barnes, Mina Loy or Gertrude Stein. I can’t rule out any of these things because we know she is a big reader and has a great curiosity about literature. A question that always interests me is how she knew at 16 that all of this was possible. Because it seemed like any adult who knew anything about the music industry would have told him it wasn’t possible.

She must have been surrounded by these adults telling her, “I know you want to write songs, but you have to make it happen. You have to pay your dues. Here’s this song that your producer’s roommate wrote, you should do this song.” . Then, once installed, you will be able to write your own songs. She didn’t make any of the compromises that people were constantly asking of her back then. And by people, I mean men.

What do you want to see from Swift as an artist in the future and on her albums?

That’s a good question. What would you say?

I want a Bleachella rock album. This is always my wish.

Yeah, I want that too. Specifically, I want the punk-rock album. “We will never get back together” this screamo versionI watch it all the time, and I’m like, “Okay, if she could do this performance and throw herself into it so completely, there’s no way she’d ever stop it. She definitely will make an album of that sort of thing.” .” This would be #1 on my wish list.

If she made an album with, say, Mannequin Pussy, can you imagine how awesome that would be? This might sound strange, but it would have seemed strange five years ago if someone said to you, “Hey, Taylor is going to do a whole album with the guys from The National and Bon Iver.” Oh, and also, she’s going to continue touring with Phoebe Bridgers. “She listens to everything. She’ll learn stuff from everything. But whatever she does next, we know it’s going to be weird and different.

Heartbreak is the national anthem is available for purchase here.